Fr. Barron on “dumbed down” Catholicism – http://www.wordonfire.org

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37 COMMENTS

  1. As a religious ed teacher it is appalling how the catechisis stops around 6th grade and doesn’t get anymore complex. It is such a failure on our part. I supplement in my class. Is a new texbook going to be published?

    • I sure hope so, Susan. I hungered for knowledge of our church as a young person but there *seemed* to be nothing at all after confirmation. What we were taught in catechism was indeed the stuff of comic books. Since getting internet in the last couple of years, I have discovered a Catholism which is vast and rich in knowledge and tradition. My love of Christ is strengthened by what I have learned and I grieve to know that the information is not common knowledge.

  2. Fr. Barron is an engaging speaker, but needs to spend more time in a parish. The “dumbing down” he speaks of is a template used by the catholic right to disparage ordinary church members who need make no apology for never having heard of Virgil or maybe even Hamlet. The church’s mission is to bear witness to the good news to all people, not just educated elites. We employ simplified catechetical materials to increase the odds of someone actually reading or viewing them. The need is to evangelize the masses, not just give educated elites Aquinas bragging rights.

    • Father,

      With all due respect – Yes, those who have not yet been able to ween themselves off of pablum are not yet ready for filet mignon. Not only will the texture and taste be offensive but they will not be able to chew through it. You say that “the Church’s mission is to bear witness to the good news to all the people” and “to evangelize the masses” and of course you are right. But “all the people” and “the masses” are not idiots. We can’t stop at the “Color Me Jesus” Catechism. Would you go to an accountant or a doctor who had stopped studying in the 8th grade? Of course not. Then why would you accept that a witness to Christ need know no more than they did to get through their Confirmation exam?

    • I am a bit divided on this, because I think you’re very right, Fr. Jack, to caution against elitism. By the same token, though, I bristle at the many references I hear as a theology student to the proverbial “people in the pews,” who seem to have their intelligence insulted quite a bit with overgeneralizations implying a high degree of ignorance and/or apathy. I think Fr. Barron has a point in that if his niece is reading at a certain level in other subjects, she should have access to robust theology at the same level of complexity and challenging thought. Of course, being well catechized is not only about good reading material, but is at least as much about how compellingly we tell the story in our liturgy, such that it flows naturally into orthopraxis.

    • Jesus also said to “Go TEACH all nations”. Jesus Himself teached and preached as well as showed by his actions! I left school at 13 years of age and knew only the basics. I learned a lot from Fr. Barron and others.

      God Bless!

      • I think the worst thing anyone can do is guess at someone’s intelligence. Give people “all of it”. Don’t hold back! That is, in my opinion, why someone “might” leave the Church.
        I agree with Fr. Barron 100%!

    • Father,
      I teach high school English in a rural Alabama public school. Every public high school in Alabama, and according to my nationwide contacts, most public high schools in the country, have their juniors or seniors read Hamlet. Unless high school graduation is only for the elite (and in this country we say a resounding NO to that!), Hamlet is part of the common core.

      There is a reason for this: Hamlet is most likely still a teenager himself, and his girlfriend, Ophelia, assuredly is; yet these two young people have to face life’s ultimate questions head on. Today’s teens connect deeply with thwarted romance, interfering parents, violence and suicide, wrapped up in solid catechesis! Murder in a garden, brother killing brother, evil represented by a serpent…sound familiar?

      With all due respect, Father, perhaps you should research (a) your state’s course of study for English (I’ll bet it has a Shakespeare requirement in12th grade) and (b) consider the fact that, for 400+ years now, Hamlet has been the most commonly performed play in the Western world, outside of Biblical narratives of the Nativity and Resurrection of Jesus. That isn’t elitism, Father; that’s catholicity.

    • Father,
      I teach high school English in a rural Alabama public school. Every public high school in Alabama, and according to my nationwide contacts, most in the country, have their juniors or seniors read Hamlet. Unless high school graduation is only for the elite (and in this country we say a resounding NO to that!), Hamlet is part of the common core.

      With all due respect, Father, perhaps you should research (a) your state’s course of study for English (I’ll bet it has a Shakespeare requirement in12th grade) and (b) consider the fact that, for 400+ years now, Hamlet has been the most commonly performed play in the Western world, outside of Biblical narratives of the Nativity and Resurrection of Jesus. That isn’t elitism, Father; that’s catholicity.

    • Father,
      I teach English in a rural Alabama public high school. Every public high school in Alabama, and according to my nationwide contacts, most in the country, has its students read Hamlet. Unless high school graduation is only for the elite (and in this country we say a resounding NO to that!), Hamlet is part of the common experience.

      With all due respect, Father, perhaps you should (a) research your state’s course of study for English (I’ll bet it has a Shakespeare requirement in12th grade) and (b) consider that, for 400+ years now, Hamlet has been the most commonly performed play in the Western world, outside of Biblical narratives of the Nativity and Resurrection of Jesus. That isn’t elitism, Father; that’s catholicity.

    • Father,
      I teach English in a rural Alabama public high school. Every public high school in Alabama, and according to my nationwide contacts, most in the country, has its students read Hamlet. Unless high school graduation is only for the elite (and in this country we say a resounding NO to that!), Hamlet is part of the common experience.

      With all due respect, Father, perhaps you should (a) research your state’s course of study for English (I’ll bet it has a Shakespeare requirement in12th grade) and (b) consider that, for 400 years now, Hamlet has been the most commonly performed play in the Western world, outside of Biblical narratives of the Nativity and Resurrection of Jesus. That isn’t elitism, Father; that’s catholicity.

    • Father,
      I teach English in a rural Alabama public high school. Virtually every public high school in Alabama (and according to my nationwide contacts, throughout the country) has all of its students–not just the “gifted” ones–read Hamlet. Or do you mean to argue that high school is only for the elite?

      With all due respect, Father, perhaps you should (a) research your state’s course of study for English (I’ll bet it requires Shakespeare in12th grade) and (b) consider that, for 400 years now, Hamlet has been the most frequently performed play in the Western world, outside of Biblical narratives of the Nativity and Resurrection of Jesus. That isn’t elitism, Father; that’s catholicity.

    • Father,
      I teach English in a rural Alabama public high school. Virtually every public high school in Alabama (and according to my nationwide contacts, throughout the country) has all of its students–not just the “gifted” ones–read Hamlet. Or do you mean to argue that high school is only for the elite? With all due respect, Father, perhaps you should (a) research your state’s course of study for English (I’ll bet it requires Shakespeare in12th grade) and (b) consider that, for 400 years now, Hamlet has been the most frequently performed play in the Western world, outside of Biblical narratives of the Nativity and Resurrection of Jesus. That isn’t elitism, Father; that’s catholicity.

    • I teach English in a rural Alabama public high school. Virtually every public high school in Alabama (and according to my nationwide contacts, throughout the country) has all of its students–not just the “gifted” ones–read Hamlet. Or do you mean to argue that high school is only for the elite? With all due respect, Father, perhaps you should (a) research your state’s course of study for English (I’ll bet it requires Shakespeare in12th grade) and (b) consider that, for 400 years now, Hamlet has been the most frequently performed play in the Western world, outside of Biblical narratives of the Nativity and Resurrection of Jesus. That isn’t elitism, Father; that’s catholicity.

  3. When Jesus, the Son of God, a Carpenter, choose His disciples did He not select ordinary working men? Was not the the rock on which He built His Church a Fisherman? Learning is important, Aquinas, Augustine, so necessary the Church needs this knowledge it is a gift from God, but if you teach people to have a personal relationship with Jesus as the first disciples did and be open to the Holy Spirit we can have once again evangelisation like that of Acts 2:41 where a fisher man who days earlier denied even knowing Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit brought three thousand to know God’s love through a single speech. Remember Luke 12:11-12 “do not be anxious how or what you are to answer or what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say”. God is love, that love is available to everyone, He is the one who calls people to Him and He does it through love, please do not go back to speaking of needing to be educated before you can speak of having Jesus who loves you by your side in all circumstances, who died and rose again to save all sinners, even the illiterate ones, to the person standing at the bus stop with you or the person serving you at the supermarket or the family members who wonder whyattending Mass has become the most important part of your day. You can be too clever to know God but I personally have met His love in some very (by societies standards) uneducated people.

    • Yes, but He also chose Paul, hardly an ordinary working man. Paul was an educated man, and God chose him for a mission that required his educational background, i.e., to write the Epistles.

      • Education and learning are extremely important as I said they are gifts from God and should be used but actually Paul proves my point, it was not his educational background that led him to know Jesus it was when a light from heaven flashed and Jesus spoke to him (personally) and asked him why he was persecuting Him. It was when Jesus then sent Ananias and Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit that he was able to take on the mission God chose him for – to evangelise to so many and write so many amazing epistles for us to read and learn from today. I learn so much from reading the writings of Paul after his encounter on the road to Damascus, I learn nothing of a loving God from the same educated man who looked after the cloaks at the stoning of Stephen and sought letters from the high priest to persecute the early Church.

        • Delia, would you agree that it is the responsibility of parents to introduce their children to Jesus and begin forming a true and beautiful relationship with Him? If so, do you agree that one cannot truly love a person who one does not know? I mean to say that a child’s understanding of Jesus (He loves us and takes care of us) is enough for a child to come to love Jesus, at least in a preliminary sense. However, that child’s understanding of and relationship with Jesus must grow with his intellect, if at all possible. Many Popes have stressed the importance and fundamental right of education (and, above all, education in the truths of one’s faith).

          For those who are entering the Church as adults, it seems that they deserve to know the richness and depth of the Catholic faith tradition. It only remains to be determined at what pace each individual person can learn about such things. Even if it takes some time, they should be exposed to the breadth and depth of Catholic teaching. As so many have told me both personally and via anonymous online testimony, it is this revelation of the beauty of Catholic teaching (and, necessarily flowing from that teaching, a more full understanding of and knowledge of our Lord) that has brought them to appreciate and embrace their Catholic faith. I haven’t heard anyone claim that they wanted to become part of the Catholic Church because of the simplicity of her teachings or the lack of historicity. On the contrary, quite the opposite is true!

          You must know that St. Paul learned under Gamaliel, the great Jewish Scholar of the Law. It was St. Paul’s deep understanding of Old Testament Scripture coupled with the supernatural infusion of understanding and knowledge that allowed him to preach all the more effectively and write some of the theologically richest texts in all of the Bible. St. Paul spent years between his vision and the beginning of his preaching, preparing for the task at hand through prayer and reflection on the truths which our Lord revealed to him through the power of the Holy Spirit. I would hesitate to use St. Paul as an example of how education or knowledge is (relatively) unimportant to our Christian lives. If anything, he is the poster-boy for deep reflection and rigorous education!

          Essentially, I think what some of us are trying to get at is a “both-and” approach to our Catholic faith. Let us strive for simplicity of life while seeking depth of understanding. Saints like Francis de Sales were among some of the simplest in their life’s philosophy and practical living, but many are considered Doctors of the Church! So I don’t think that we are called to shy away from an intellectually engaging approach to learning our faith; rather, it makes more sense that we seek out as great an understanding as befits our state in life and, if we allow God to lead us, we will (super)naturally come to embrace a life of simplicity, suffering, and unconditional love.

          P.S. I don’t intend by any means to downplay the absolute reliance that we have (or must have) on God to provide us with understanding and wisdom. It just seems that we are called to do our part (if you will) in the process of gaining that understanding and wisdom. It puts me in mind of the whole “‘Why didn’t I win the lottery?’ ‘Well, you have to buy a ticket!'” story. We can’t all expect as dramatic an experience/vision/gift as St. Paul and the Apostles!

  4. I’ve been through Catholic schools, and so have all of my siblings, and I remember the same problem with the Theology classes, with the exception of my Scripture class and a Literature/Theology elective, the material was juvenile. Since college, I’ve discovered that there’s over 1,000 years worth of “good stuff”, and a lot of it is accessible. Chesterton, C.S. Lewis, Therese the Little Flower and even Teresa of Avila wrote at a level that any high-school student or lower could understand. Other people have done a good job with JPII’s Theology of the Body and put it into a format that can be used in classrooms. Aquinas is great, but he’s not for everyone, and that’s ok bc there are plenty of others to choose from:)

  5. I strongly agree with Fr. Barron on this issue. His points, if taken in light of his overall message, answer all objections put forth in these comments. He states directly that students at Catholic schools must be given increasingly more intellectually engaging material as they grow in understanding. Therefore, a high school senior should be a great deal more familiar with the deeper teachings and meanings of the Catholic faith than someone in 6th grade. By implication, Fr. Barron is also suggesting that all Catholics should be steadily more catechized throughout their Catholic faith journey. I’m sure that he does not suggest that someone who has never learned about the Sacraments be exposed to a complex course on Sacramental Theology. Rather, he must certainly mean to say that it is our responsibility as Catholic adults to catechize the youth, while simultaneously bearing the responsibility of furthering our own understanding to the best of our ability so that we may all “tell our story” more dynamically and faithfully.

    It is all well and good that the Apostles were largely uneducated men, but that was remedied (at least, with regard to their education in the faith) by our Lord through three years of in-person instruction and, afterwards, a supernatural infusion of understanding and knowledge via the sending of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. We cannot all expect the same supernatural and special infusion of understanding and knowledge, since that specific grace has not been guaranteed to us as it was to the Apostles when Jesus said to them, “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you” (John 14:26).

    I am sure that, as an intelligent man, Fr. Barron fully understands that not all Catholics are destined to be great intellectuals or Doctors of the Church. He does not by any means suggest that everyone go out and earn a degree (or several) in Theology. Still, his points (stated explicitly or implicitly) remain valid; namely, that we as a whole are not doing a good enough job making sure that our Catholic youth understand their faith (as evidenced by the “turnover” rate among young Catholics), that we have a responsibility to perpetually increase understanding of and relationship with our God through the teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and that when we improve our performance in these areas (in which we are currently lacking), we will be able to tell the Catholic story in a manner which is fitting of so great a gift.

    For a greater understanding of where Fr. Barron is coming from, I suggest looking into the spirituality and teachings of St. Francis de Sales. He has been made a Doctor of the Church for his efforts to show the laity that holiness is attainable in any legitimate walk of life. However, I am sure that St. Francis de Sales would not limit the education of the laity to the extent that they are able to understand, or that is what I have come to understand through reading his writings and multiple biographies (he is my patron saint).

    God bless you all, and Merry Christmas!!!

  6. Fr. Barron seems on thin ice when he begins a presentation with a proclamation that the saints are dead. One has a significant burden of intellectual care and precision, if one is to criticize “dumbing down.” Fr. Barron seems dangerous in his inattention to many fundamental details, like the hope of life after death.

    • John, it was clear to me that Fr. Barron was referring to the physical death of the saints and in no way to a lack of communion with us even now through the Communion of Saints. He was using that expression to make a point that it is now our turn to “work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12) and to “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19-20). This becomes crystal clear when one listens to the minute or so of the video following the segment that you have criticized.

      We must keep context in mind just as much as precision. In fact, ignoring context takes away from the very same precision in thought!

  7. I agree with Fr. Barron and DanielJ, also. I went to Catholic schools in the ’80s and ’90s in the Los Angeles Archdiocese, and had some wonderful Religion teachers who taught us about Aquinas (in 7th grade, no less), and comparative christianity, among many other topics in Catholicism and religion. I think the only class we might have had a textbook (besides the Bible in our Testament classes) was Social Justice (not a comic book, btw). I value my Catholic education in so many ways.

    I have not had the opportunity to offer my children a Catholic education, however, so I don’t know what they are like now.While I love my parish priests (I live in Tucson, now, and they are the sweetest men), I’m a little disappointed at how basic most of the homilies are, and the limited opportunities for faith formation for adults that are offered. I miss my parishes in California, Colorado and Oregon where there was so much more than the occasional diocesan women’s retreat. I know I need to do more research on what is offered throughout the diocese, but I’d like more passion and education through the homilies from my parish priests, and if high school students are not being challenged in their Religion classes or youth groups, that definitely needs to be addressed.

  8. While I do appreciate Fr Barron’s point, I would also like to make the point that Jesus himself as our Great Teacher, taught the greatest lessons of the Church through the simplicity of parables so that even the most uneducated could understand…we’re not too good for it still even today.

    • Ann, I agree that Jesus did not present His teaching in the form of the Summa Theologiae or any such thing. In fact, His entire message was passed on orally. However, keep in mind that the parables that Jesus used were almost never understood either by the Apostles, Jesus’s other disciples, or by any other people listening at the time. We can see the people repeatedly confounded and confused, asking “What can this mean?” or something equivalent to this question.

      Consider Jesus’s words in Matthew 13:11, when He says, “”To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” This comes immediately after He tells a parable that the people do not understand. I am not saying that Jesus means for us to be in the dark regarding His teachings, but that even the parables that He used to make His points more easily understood were not grasped by His contemporaries. It is easier for us to know their meaning now with 2000 years of reflection and understanding, but it was not so back then. This leads me back to my appreciation for the rich tradition of the Catholic Church. It took a great many brilliant people to come up with the (relatively) concise and precise teachings now available to us. Think about how many saints, priests, monks, nuns, and lay people have had time to meditate on the mysteries of our faith and pass on their findings! This is the treasure that we have to offer to the world. Are we going to claim that the world is better off with parables alone than with those parables and millennia of prayerful reflection? I hope not!

  9. I am glad that there are priests like Fr. Barron to teach and speak the truth. We need more like him rather than the condescending and sarcastic tripe that has spewed from many pulpits for far too long. If Catholics have been “dumbed down”, that is the main reason why they have. JPII recognized this in a way, and that’s why he wrote the CCC so that people might be able to better clearly understand the faith. Once a person gets out of Catholic grammar school, however, it’s a crap shoot unless they have GOOD parents to teach them “the way”. Don’t start me on college…that’s when it really all falls apart. How do I know? I work at a “catholic” college–enough said!

  10. The reason I’ve converted to the Roman Catholic Church is because of it’s rich tradition, and intelligence. I agree with Fr. Barron….I don’t know how many Catholics come to me for answers about their own faith because I’m in RCIA. That’s a failure on the Church’s part. Keep educating your Parishioners. Let them decide on their own how much they can digest. You may be shocked at how thirsty they are.

  11. Helen is right. Catholics must be properly educated on our Church’s doctrine. The main reason why so many Catholics left the Church and joined other groups is because of ignorance on the meaning of the Church’s teachings. I believe it is the primary obligation of the Church to give the members a profound and comprehensive explanation of the Catholic doctrine. The whole truth must be told.

    • Most of the people I know that have left do not know their faith at all. They have left to learn about other faiths, sadly. Bible studies in other faiths and sports activities/fellowship have taken them away.
      And many I know are barely-there Catholics. I could see them easily leaving the church, some just from laziness. They don’t study the faith, or pray and are certainly not passing the beauty of the Catholic church on to their children. Soo many things to learn and study.
      You don’t have to be smart to be a faithful Catholic and know your faith. But you do have to seek God – and you’ll find him.

  12. Fr. Barron mentioned that “we tell our story in the liturgy”. This is where catechesis is carried on in a sacramental way. I believe that this is where the bar could be raised, as we observe our Holy Father’s leading the way. “Right worship gathers the world”, Fr. Barron said, and I agree.

  13. I came home yesterday from Mass where we had a very dumbed down type homily to pick up a book of St. Francis de Sales Lenten sermons. After reading the sermon for Ash Wednesday and the first Sunday of Lent, it really struck me that probably nearly everyone in the pews (excepting the littlest children) could have gotten a lot more out of those sermons than the one we actually heard. We have a good pastor, he loves the Lord, he wants people to go into Scripture for themselves. He encourages people to read Sacred Scripture. Unfortunately, he also thinks that in order to keep people coming to Mass he’s got to amuse them. There always has to be a joke, or two, or three during his homily. I wish he could read some of these sermons himself and recognize their timeless value. I think that his seminary training encouraged him to believe that things have to be watered down and sprinkled with sugar in order for the faithful to understand them. Unfortunately, he may not be underestimating some of his parish. While their secular knowledge may be at the level of a Masters or a PhD some of their knowledge of the Christian faith remains at the level of a first communion child.

    Unfortunately, so long as we get Twinkie sermons instead of at least ground beef, the level of knowledge is not going to increase and people will continue to think of Mass as something that they do that’s separate from the rest of their lives.

    I was so hopeful for the new translation of the Mass, the new confiteor was so improved. I noticed options b and c and figured that they were for weeks when there was a baptism or for parishes that were still stuck in the silly seventies. Then yesterday, we got option b for no particularly good reason except that one of the parish staff thought we needed to try more than one of the options. So, it was the watered down version, at the beginning of Lent. I am saddened by that.

  14. I will never forget a young priest about 15 years ago giving a homily and comparing life and Christianity to an Oreo Cookie. OK sure, there were a few kids in the congregation that might have taken an interest long enough to stop playing with their toys and coloring books in the pews long enough to listen to his sermon. But it completely shut down my interest and I had to make conscious attempts to not feel insulted by the lack of depth of material. I for one am frankly sick and tired of hearing so called adult Catholics parroting thin protestant theology in social settings: “all you got to do is love Jesus” or “just be a good person and do what you can. I will get ill if I hear anymore from men like Fox News’ Bill O’Reilly say on national TV that he’s Catholic then start spewing utter nonsense about Catholicism. Everyone is sounding like a Protestant these days. It’s am embarrassment to the church. We MUST start catechizing Catholics at an ADULT level – most just “don’t get it” and are cultural Catholics going through the motions – clueless, absolutely clueless. We should also be teaching every Catholic apologetics – to make members cognizant of the many popular errors of our times so they can defend their faith and correct the errors that are “out there”. So sick of hearing the nonsense of “do not judge” used as a tag line to put one’s head in the sand and not speak out on anything one sees wrong in society. Most Catholics are into what I would call a love-n-lollipops sort of Christianity – an over feminized point of view that tolerates anything just to keep the peace and to fit in. Christianity is supposed to be provocative, bold, and fearless – setting the standards and leading the world – not becoming part of it with a least common denominator dumbed down catechism and knowledge. Catholicism was always known for its intellectualism and depth of wisdom – but we don’t see much of that in practice anymore. That’s not to say that its too sublime rather it’s a deep layered theology.

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